Ok, a 4 passenger subcompact that gets 50 mpg. Lets see, I remember at least 3 vehicles from the early 70's I believe that got nearly that and they were carburated. If the manufacturers had continued along the lines that they were going you should now have a camry sized platform which gets 40+ mpg with the same power and low emissions.<br>Prius a Ulev? It does qualify according to our gov't. In the real world in which most people run their a/c full blast during the summer it does not but i concede the overall emissions will be lower.<br>It will help the air quality quite a bit!<br>Nope sorry. I live in Nj and work In NYC. Car emissions are really only a problem if the vehicle isn't running properly. Most of the emissions regulations let these cars that smoke, leak oil etc pass inspection. And that includes dyno testing. The prius would have to sell about 10 million per year in the us and you wouldnt see the help for about 10 years and even then it would be a very small improvement. Also trucks and industry as well as aviation are the major polluters in the US. Thats why in some states if you turn in a car which is considered a gross polluter they can sell pollution credits to industry to pollute more. Besides a properly running conventional car is super clean also.<br>Just to give you a little backround I am a Prius certified master tech for Toyota. In my opinion they arent worth it.

Troy, is that you? ;-)

&gt; In my opinion they arent worth it. <br> <br>Neither is a behemoth SUV that never uses its 4-WD, heavy-duty suspension, or passenger seats. But that doesn't stop record breaking sales (and profit) from continuing. Everyone has their own opinion. (So it's ok that you voiced yours).<br><br><br>&gt; subcompact <br><br>That label makes me crazy. The interior is the same (actually taller) as my 94 Taurus, which is called a "sedan". Apparently, it's the exterior length that's important. Why? In my Prius I can make incredibly tight turns, and I can very comfortably fit in short parking spots. Try that with a sedan.<br><br><br>&gt; ULEV... run their a/c full blast during the summer... <br>&gt; overall emissions will be lower<br><br>That is true in *ALL* vehicles, not just Prius. The same goes for winter driving, *EVERYONE* gets lower MPG. <br><br><br>&gt; Car emissions are really only a problem if the vehicle <br>&gt; isn't running properly. <br><br>Ahh, there are a ton of vehicles out there that aren't well maintained, which is really unfortunate.<br><br><br>&gt; would have to sell about 10 million per year in the us <br>&gt; and you wouldnt see the help for about 10 years and even <br>&gt; then it would be a very small improvement. <br><br>Don't you care about your children? They'll be around +60 years from now and will be truly grateful for the efforts we began. Regardless, 17 million new vehicles are sold in the US every year. 5 million per year for the next 20 years could actually be realistic, especially when you realize that the acceptance of hybrids would be a catalyst for other changes which would add up to a big improvement. "If we were able to change the way we use gas, why not try changing..."<br><br>JOHN<br><a href=http://home.att.net/~john1701a target=new>http://home.att.net/~john1701a</a>

&gt;Ok, a 4 passenger subcompact that gets 50 mpg. Lets see, I remember at least 3 vehicles from the early 70's I believe that got nearly that and they were carburated.&lt;<br>Please name 3 American cars from the early '70s that got over 45mpg please.<br>&gt;Prius a Ulev?&lt;<br>My Prius has a SULEV sticker on the window, and yes I do use low sulfur gas<br>&gt;Ok, a 4 passenger subcompact&lt;<br>I believe that the Prius is classified as a compact<br>&gt;Besides a properly running conventional car is super clean also.&lt;<br>True, but Prius only pollutes 1/10th as much ;-)

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Just thought I would tell you that my wife and I just returned from a 382 mile round trip through the mountains near Lake Tahoe CA.The elevation varied from 1000 to 7000 feet and we got 51.5 MPG with the AC on. What we lost going uphill we gained going downhill and more. I suggest you hurry over to your local junkyard and dig out one of those fantastic high mileage vehicles and put it back on the road. Maybe you can also make it turn off automatically when you are stopped at traffic lights. Also, please tell us which Toyota dealer you work for so we can avoid it like the plague. Happy Motoring!

Whew! Don't rain on my parade or anything! Some of this seems like rather elaborate rationalization, but why? <br>In pieces:<br><br>&gt;&gt;Ok, a 4 passenger subcompact that gets 50 mpg. &gt;&gt;Lets see, I remember<br>&gt;&gt; at least 3 vehicles from the early 70's I &gt;&gt;believe that got nearly that and they were carburated.<br><br>Yes, and if it is the same vehicles I remember, they would all qualify as death traps today. In addition, they managed to convert most of their exhaust to CO and NOx.<br><br>&gt;&gt;In NYC. Car emissions are really only<br>&gt;&gt; a problem if the vehicle isn't running properly...In the real world in which most people run their a/c full blast during the summer it does not<br>&gt;&gt; but i concede the overall emissions will be lower.<br><br>It is generally true that the dirtiest 10% of autos produce 80% of the vehicular air pollution, but that doesn't say the balance of cars should not be bothered. In California cities, vehicles account for the vast majority of air pollution. No coal-burning plants out here. And even in California, you don't run the AC on max more than a few days a year.<br><br>&gt;&gt;Just to give you a little backround I am a Prius certified master tech for Toyota. In my opinion they arent worth it. <br><br>I guess that just shows us that a skilled mechanic is not necessarily an expert on environmental pollution or social responsibility.

I doubt you are a Toyota Tech, and if you are, you must hate your job since you are neither supportive nor informed. There are no 70s vehicles that got close to 50mpg! The first car I remember breaking the 40mpg barrier was a Datsun B-210, which would get 41 on the highway and about 27 in the city. I'm not sure, but that car was probably 1700lbs. wet, a full 1000lbs lighter than a Prius. Pretty much a tin can; forget the cramped interior and horrible power. In 1996 and 1997 Honda Civic CRX HF got 52city / 57 Hwy, but again it was a lightweight, low horsepower car, and in this case, it was a 2-seater. Keep in mind; the Prius has more rear seat room than a 2001 Mercedes C240/C320 or CLK and about equal trunk space. Further, it has the flattest torque curve of any vehicle on the road (thanks to the electric motor.) You really can?t compare.<br><br>If I may throw out an appropriate clich? -<br>"If you're not a part of the solution, you are a part of the problem." You sir, are a part of the problem.<br>Oh, and be careful, you are starting to smoke the filter of your cigarette.

In Message 5598 hevster1 Said:<br>&gt; I am a Prius certified master tech for Toyota. <br>&gt; In my opinion they arent worth it. <br>Um... Fellow Prius Folks...<br>This post leads me to recall a previous "expert" (Not to mention "biodiesel..")<br>To save y'all the time, I copied the appropriate profile ( <a href=http://profiles.yahoo.com/hevster1 target=new>http://profiles.yahoo.com/hevster1</a> ) here:<br>

Good Lord.<br><br>We Prius types sure like to pat ourselves on the back and talk about how "socially responsibile" we are. I guess it is socially responsible to beat the crap out of anybody who doesn't agree with you.<br><br>Hevster1, I don't know if you are a master tech for Toyota or not. But I for one (just one???) welcome you input whether or not I agree with all of your conclusions.<br><br>It is, after all, the dissenting opinion that will keep the discussion more interesting. I do hope that we can all take a few minutes out of the continuous group hug every once and a while for some friendly disagreement?

Huh? I don't think he was trying to have "a dissenting opinion" as much as to stir up some!!!!<br>Alot of people [mostly SUV types] try to say the same thing when being defensive.

Normally I wouldn't respond to such an obvious troll. However, I must respond to this comment:<br><br>&gt; The prius would have to sell<br>&gt; about 10 million per year in the us and you <br>&gt; wouldnt see the help for about 10 years and even<br>&gt; then it would be a very small improvement. <br><br>You're right -- we can never change it. It's pointless to be the first to do anything. We're doomed. Resistance is futile. We have been assimilated!<br><br>Yeah, right. <br><br>Cheers,<br>Jay

&gt;&gt;Ok, a 4 passenger subcompact that gets 50 mpg. &gt;&gt;Lets see, I remember<br>&gt;&gt; at least 3 vehicles from the early 70's I &gt;&gt;believe that got nearly that and they were &gt;&gt;carburated.<br>&gt;<br>&gt;Yes, and if it is the same vehicles I remember, &gt;they would all qualify as death traps today. In &gt;addition, they managed to convert most of their &gt;exhaust to CO and NOx.<br><br>I can't imagine what mainstream US cars got 50 MPG in the 70s. Speaking of deathtraps, I had a '72 Pinto (manual shift, small engine) that once got 40MPG on a trip, and I thought I was in heaven. I don't think a Vega was any better.<br><br>But to me the big point is not MPG, at least not to save $$. Part of the point is to save pollution. Higher MPG translates directly into lower CO2. Beyond that, the Prius is lower in NOx and HC.<br><br>The other part of the point is to support a manufacturer who dares to try something different in the name of the environment. Even if the lifetime environmental cost (including manufacturing and end-of-life processing) of the Prius is similar to other vehicles, I would *still* support it because it is a step in a direction away from mainstream.<br><br>Burns

hevster1,<br><br> I think your facts are incorrect and improperly compared as stated by other replies. Relative to the average vehicle on the road today the Prius is a breath of fresh air and shows what the automakers could do if they really wanted to with technologies that have been on the self for some time now. Considering the move towards larger and more polluting SUV's by the American public, we Prius owners really have much to feel good about (imagine all those SUV's with "save the whales" stickers on them).<br><br>Has your Toyota facility worked on any Prius'? If so, what have you seen (in detail) that gives you a negative impression of them. What are their MTTR and MTBR ratios?<br><br> Ron (NJ)